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fish scraping on rocks

Discussion in 'Fish Diseases & Cures' started by blowfishRus6, Dec 6, 2009.

  1. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    i have a 75 gal tank with 4 african chiclid (yellow bumble bee i persume, a dark colered one that shares the same striping as the bumble bee, then i think a zebra chiclid then an eletric yellow) i also have a jack dempsy and an oscar (im currently looking to get them there own 75+ gal tank) o and an algie eater and a small cat fish.

    they all like to scrap against things (except the algie eater and catfish) alot an its more than usally. i do my frequent water changes with condintioned tap water and do my normal gravel vacumes and what not. no amonia in the tank and ph is in the 7.5 range (i have some normal gravel along with some crused coral and a little bit of sand on one end along with a drift wood in there) also have one live plant (dont know what kind it is tho :/) just a normal little plant. its been in there for a while and has not effected the fish from what ive seen.

    i run amoniam chips in my filter with a little bit of carbon along with a sponge filter along with the normal filter in it.

    when i first got my tank i killed my share of fish but since ive learned what im doing and have gotten better with the up keep of the tank and waterchanges and what not, i have yet to kill anymore fish.

    there is also a decent amout of hiding places in the tank.

    the fish are usally fine till i add some feeders from say pet smart or something (the feeders are for my oscar and jack dempsy, ocansinally the african chiclid will eat them) i usally got a guy i go to that has some pretty clean fish and i usally dont have issuies with them. after the feeders they start to scape rocks and what not.

    i had an outbreak of ich at one point in time (only had the jack dempsy and yellow bumble bee at that time) they had the white spots and scraped things. i treated that by rasing the temp and treating with salt for a few weeks and it went away.

    but they dont have the white spots now, just scrap sometimes, only latly, they have be doing it all the time. im guessing a batch of feeders where dirty and they have parsites on them but its been going on longer than usual now.

    is there common remides for this??? would a parasite medicine help??? i know i need to get the jack dempsy and the oscar there own tank, but untill then, this set up has been going on with little issuies. like said its only when i add cheap feeder fish. but like said it has not gone away, one fish stared doing it till all of them were doing it.

    any help???


    sorry for the novel [laughing]
     
  2. HBIC

    HBIC Need help??? That's what we're here for :)

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    I wouldn't add any meds until I see other signs of disease, this could just be a stress thing.
     
  3. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    and it might just be a stress thing. the oscar is getting bigger now and is not running and hiding scared as much (the dark chiclid [dominate male] used to run it off scared, and well it still will run it off every now and then)

    but i think its an unballence.

    they dont fight or anything and they get along well.

    but like said, ill have the jack dempsy and oscar in there own tank soon. i would like to try and mate the african chiclid
     
  4. HBIC

    HBIC Need help??? That's what we're here for :)

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    I would say getting the oscar a larger tank would be your best course of action:)
     
  5. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    Discus do this and it seems to be territorial marking... Possibly you have fish marking their feeding grounds..

    Either way I dont like feeding feeder goldfish to anything... IMO they are dirty fish... If you want to fee feeders, IMO raise some livebearer yourself so you know the condition of their food and know its clean.

    Also agreed there are TOO many fish in that 75... thats room for 1 pleco and 1 oscar...

    And a SA/African mix is not great either IMO... the recommended water parameters are opposite
     
  6. MOD_Dawn

    MOD_Dawn Active Member

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    any nitrite or nitrate reading on the tank?
    what temp are you keeping them at and is it consistant?

    I know with my experience of when I had Jacks and Oscars they did "scrape" against the decor (castles at the time) in the tank and had nothing wrong with them.

    No signs of ich (being you already dealt with it I'm sure you know what that looks like) or velvet (cottony/fuzzy appearance)? What about wounds or noticing any fish "picking" on the other? (also, may be related to breeding...my jacks when I had them would scrape off the castle when the other was behind it...but you should see one coloring up if this was the case and possibly "chasing")
     
  7. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    i have just recently got a 10 gal tank that im gonna set up for guppie breeding and i do try and stay away from goldfish (might try and find a tad bit bigger tank for that)

    i do not know my nitrite or nitrate levels, i dont have testers for this yet, im still kinda new to the fish thing.

    there is no signs of any ich or the cottony fuzzy appearance. no signs of wounds or open sores.

    the dominate dark colored african chiclid does kinda turn colors when he chases the oscar some times, and he does nibble at the oscar some times, but they never get into fights, just a little breif chase. the oscar has no signs of taking damage or anything. but there is a deff a territorial thing going on in there.

    basically none of the fish are getting hurt, they just do it alot, and well they kinda do it all over the tank, not in one perticular area. and the dark colored chiclid does do his matting dance from time to time so yes they could be getting teritorial from that also.

    i should have another tank for the oscar and jack dempsy after christmas, just a little worried for the mean time. maybe i could add more hiding structures in there.
     
  8. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    Make sure you treat the first batch of guppies you buy for several illnesses so that way they dont contaminate the tank! Very good call to do that though....

    I still think its territory marking and not an illness...
     
  9. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    what illnesses should i treat them for?? thanks for the heads up. and any other advice on the guppie set up in general??

    it probably is territory marking.
     
  10. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    o and i keep my tank from 78-80* if that matters.
     
  11. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    Guppy illness I would treat for.... Flukes, Heximita and Ich

    Meds to use:
    General Cure (API): Contains Metronidazole and Prazi (treats hex and flukes along with MANY other things)
    Quick Cure: Contains Malachite Green and Formalin (Treats Ich and a few other things too)

    Follow dosing directions on the Guppies and in a week they should be illness free for the most part. That covers almost every illness you need to worry about.

    This ONLY needs to be done to the FIRST set of Guppies you buy from the LFS... You should NEVER need to do this again... after the first batch is clean, all the babies should be as well....

    This is done to ALL fish you add to the tank... So, dont let your stock of Guppies fall short or you may need to buy a separate tank so they dont contaminate your existing stock...

    Does that make sense? NEVER trust any new fish is disease free! This includes new tankmates for your tank too!

    In terms of monetary value your fish are relatively cheap... I need to separate new fish (sometimes I do sometimes I dont) to keep them from making all of my others sick... I HAVE introduced some VERY bad illnesses introducing a new fish that was not showing symptoms and the disease killed over $300 worth of fish (at least!) and injured a few for life....
     
  12. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    makes perfect sence.

    i need to get another tank for treating new fish or even a hospitial tank. does tank size mater for this?? say a 20 gal for the african chiclid.
     
  13. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    not really... just big enough a large fish can live in it a week or so and you can fill with small ones... for me (5-7" Discus) a 10 gallon will do...
     
  14. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    ahh aight.

    thanks for the help.
     
  15. MOD_Dawn

    MOD_Dawn Active Member

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    I agree with Ryan, after the extra details you provided it sounds like a dominance/territory flash...Kind like "I own you" sort of deal. Lol!

    Sometimes if you move things around it will help and your definately in the right direction as far as chosing to add more structures/territories, but you still will probably see the same behavior..just not as much.

    I'd also recommend adding a LIQUID nitrite/nitrate test kit to your aquatic medicine/supply cabinet.
    Oh, and don't trust the test strips that you dip for accurate results.

    Api is a brand I trust and recommend and they have a freshwater master test kit that would include just about everything you'd need if a problem arises and you need to find the source of the issue...if you get this the only other test kit that you might want to add would be one for phosphates.

    Just to give a good idea of a few basics to have on hand:
    Pima Fix
    Mela Fix
    Fuba Fix
    Prime (dechlorinator)
    Api Master Test Kit & Phosphate test kit (isn't included in the master)
    Python No Spill Clean N' Fill Siphon (for the weekly partial water changes)

    And if you enjoy reading/learning in the link below you can find a descent amount of info from members regarding guppies if you plan on breeding them and what not:

    Great news about Guppies, breeding
     
  16. buzz4520

    buzz4520 Well-Known Member

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    i also agree with dawn and ryan.

    goldfish feeders (and anyother coldwater fish) isn't really good to feed to freshwater tropical fish due to there are amino acids in cold water fish that difficult for them to digest and there isn't really any good nutritional value to them either.
    if your wanting to give them something as a snack/treat you can try fresh shrimp (raw, uncooked, peeled) cut into little pieces...meal worms and nightcrawlers...veggies like peas (shelled), cucumber (no skin or seeds), fruits like white/green grapes or black cherries (no skin), banana. hopes this helps.
     
  17. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    I agree 100% with Buzz on the nutritional value of feeders!

    I mentioned the guppies because (IMO) many get Oscars to watch them eat live food... It should NEVER be the main diet even with Guppies... Oscars and others are Omnivores so there are nutrients they dont get in live fish alone...
     
  18. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    great info!!

    i ment to ask about nightcrawlers. i currently have a contaner out back growing some night crawlers (i bought them from the store refrigirated and i heard they wont reporduce if they were refrigirated, its only been a week so i dont know yet) but i also thought that worms may not be the best because all they are, are pretty much dirt (i presume) they also have this white muces stuff that comes off of them when the fish eat the worms. i try and clean them up before hand.

    with the guppies, yea its more of making them work a little to get there food. the most action you see from the demisie and the oscar is when you drop some live feeder fish in there.

    my main goal is to be self siffecnt and not have to relie on the LPS as much. keep quality in the control of my hands. i dont mind DIY type things. i might even start tying to build my own tanks depending on how much glass is (thats if i can beat some of the good deals i find on my local swap meets)

    im also gonna add that is a great price on the test kit. i see it for way more at my LPS's kinda why i aint got one yet.

    i do have another question about the scraping tho, after thinking about it a little more last night, i wanted to know what yall think. the dempsey is the only one i really notice that does this (hes the oldest and biggest and he came with the tank from the guy i got it from, if that would play into this) sometimes he almost does back flips to try and rub the top of his head and with intensity sometimes racing all around the tank trying to find something to rub on, sometimes swiming across the tank upside down. the african chiclid kinda do the same thing sometimes (but only on there sides) but they too will race around the tank trying to find things to rub on. it almost seems like there skin is iratated and there trying to scratch it. BUT at the same time, when they do it, kinda makes me think it is tertorial. they will start to do it when like said i add feeders. but that could be a deffense mechinism seeing as how they are seeing other fish get eaton so they go into defense mode. they also do it when i rearange the tank. i always thought when i did rearage things around, i stured up the dirt down in the rocks and it was to much for them, same with the feeder fish, they were just to dirty. the guy i get my feeders from that are clean, are goldfish, and i would only add a few at a time. and they never really seamed to rub on things when i would add them, but after some research i found out how there not all that good and that guppies were better but the place i get them from, i sometimes see the guppies rubing the bottom in there tanks, thats kinda what leads me to think its some kinda of parasite or well there just not that clean. (hint why i wanna set my own guppie tank up)

    so idk, im confussed. i stoped adding so many feeders at a time, and that helped. figured amonia levels were spiking. (ive had this issuie for a while) and sometimes they would still rub (again depending on where i got my feeders) but it would go away after a while. but latley they have been doing it alot with no signs of letting up. its probably been a good few weeks.


    thoughts???
     
  19. HBIC

    HBIC Need help??? That's what we're here for :)

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    I really think you should get more vegetable matter into the diet, too much protein for these fish (or any for that matter) can be devastating to their health.
     
  20. blowfishRus6

    blowfishRus6 Thread Starter New Member

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    i tried lettuce before with no luck. think ill try a banana later on today.