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Question about Tannins

Discussion in 'Freshwater General Discussion' started by MOD_Dawn, Feb 16, 2010.

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  1. MOD_Dawn

    MOD_Dawn Thread Starter Active Member

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    Okay, here it goes...after being snowed in for several days my mind has got to thinking (or shall we say wondering) and I'm just curious about tannins and how to get them into my water WITHOUT lowering my pH since it's already 6.0?

    For those of you who aren't aware I have a Planted Discus Community tank and I was thinking I might like to try a moreso "natural" environment.

    Now I've seen Ketapang (Indian ALmond) leaves, but when I've read up on them it says they will lower you pH (something I definitely don't need).

    Any ideas on how to stain my water WITHOUT it affecting my pH in any way?
     
    MOD_Dawn, Feb 16, 2010
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  2. jrow8162

    jrow8162 Member

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    The piece of driftwood I just put into my tank a week ago did a great job of staining my water. PH didnt really drop at all. Maybe from 7.3 to 7.2. When I took the carbon out of my filter it really stained the water. Its cleared up since I finished medicating the tank but its still got the "Blackwater" look...
     
    jrow8162, Feb 16, 2010
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  3. WhiteGloveAquatics

    WhiteGloveAquatics New Member

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    Dawn, OAK LEAVES. dead fallen oak leaves, do not get them from manicured surfaces. I bring home as many garbage bags as I can from my hunting property and collect from the local forest preserve.

    It will stain the water and Ph wont drop anything if any. The fish love the leaf litter too.
     
    WhiteGloveAquatics, Feb 16, 2010
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  4. MOD_Dawn

    MOD_Dawn Thread Starter Active Member

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    oak leaves, I thought they worked the same as the almond leaves and worried they might lower the pH?

    If I end up trying them (once the weather breaks of course)...do I simply just soak them in the water and dump the water into the tank (as needed to achieve the color I want)??

    I'm not sure about putting the leaves straight in to block the light to the plants in there?
     
    MOD_Dawn, Feb 16, 2010
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  5. WhiteGloveAquatics

    WhiteGloveAquatics New Member

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    dead leaves will sink, might take a day or two but they do, it usually happens overnight.

    its better to put them directly in there rather then in a bucket of water ive noticed. the leaves eventually turn jet black when the tannins are 100% expelled from the leaf matter.

    They wont block them and besides, its not always sunny outside either.
     
    WhiteGloveAquatics, Feb 16, 2010
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  6. MOD_Dawn

    MOD_Dawn Thread Starter Active Member

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    okie doke, I'll have to scope out the local park once the weather breaks and give it a whirl...thinking of changing things up a bit!
     
    MOD_Dawn, Feb 16, 2010
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  7. WhiteGloveAquatics

    WhiteGloveAquatics New Member

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    Id ship you some N/C but they would crumble in the mail
     
    WhiteGloveAquatics, Feb 16, 2010
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  8. MOD_Dawn

    MOD_Dawn Thread Starter Active Member

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    awe, thanks ;)
    I have a local park...I'll hit it up once the weather breaks
     
    MOD_Dawn, Feb 16, 2010
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  9. James0816

    James0816 New Member

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    The thing is...anything that you add to the water column that produces tannins will lower the PH. DW, Almond and Oak leaves, peat, etc. The only thing that I can not comment on is the DIY blackwater extract. I've never used it before so can't say what affects it would have.

    Are you currently doing anything to keep your PH at 6 or is it natural out of the tap?
     
    James0816, Feb 17, 2010
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  10. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    James is correct... Tannins are formed from Tannic Acid... A low PH is an acidic setting...

    Nothing will keep your PH from going down... IF by chance it does not lower your PH off the start what it will do is lower your GH and KH... A lower KH limits the waters ability to hold a steady PH. So if you have a nominal KH and your PH stays at we will say 7, there is a VERY high chance you could wake up one morning to find a PH crash in your tank and your PH is down to 5.5.

    Its all a matter of balance. So if you want tannic acid without lowering PH, you would add Baking Soda to your tank to increase its KH. The higher KH will help keep the waters PH from changing as much due to the increase of acid in the water column.

    On another note, without tinkering with water parameters.... tannins actually can be added (driftwood, peat moss, oak/almond leaves) in a more moderate amount and the PH drop will be barely measurable... Dont overdo anything and monitor everything and you can and will find a balance that you can efficiently maintain.

    And finally, in regards to the Blackwater Extract... its a waste of money and yes it will lower your PH, just not as much as the natural ways but you will pay a very heavy price because you have a higher volume tank and with discus requires more frequent than normal water changes...
     
    LemonDiscus, Feb 17, 2010
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  11. James0816

    James0816 New Member

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    Good info. Not that I would use it because I'm one for "all natural" items. Been curious as to it's workings but not willing to give it a whirl.
     
    James0816, Feb 17, 2010
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  12. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    When I first started with discus I was told to use it so I did.... I think I used it for 6-9 months and then discovered other ways that were not costing me $12 every water change...
     
    LemonDiscus, Feb 17, 2010
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  13. WhiteGloveAquatics

    WhiteGloveAquatics New Member

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    I make my own BWE, an hour of time collecting and 3 hours of cooking.

    cost per PWC is pennies.
     
    WhiteGloveAquatics, Feb 17, 2010
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  14. James0816

    James0816 New Member

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    That's why I love my peat. ;o)
     
    James0816, Feb 17, 2010
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  15. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    I dont even make it anymore... peat moss in my filter... My tank runs a nice steady 6.2 PH.... Even through waterchanges as my tap water has almost no KH or GH so the new water almost instantly takes on the PH of the tank....
     
    LemonDiscus, Feb 17, 2010
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  16. MOD_Dawn

    MOD_Dawn Thread Starter Active Member

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    Natural out of the tap...tank readings after using Prime are 6.0 on the money.
    NEVER fluctuates either.
     
    MOD_Dawn, Feb 17, 2010
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  17. MOD_Dawn

    MOD_Dawn Thread Starter Active Member

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    sounds like tannin stained water is out for me then, cuz I don't plan on adding anything (balance is good now--besides that darn gsa) to keep the pH in check (such as baking soda)...and I'm leary now to add leaves knowing they will lower the pH (and mines VERY low, so definitely don't need any droppage).

    Thanks for the info though guyz...at least I learned something new!
     
    MOD_Dawn, Feb 17, 2010
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  18. LemonDiscus

    LemonDiscus Active Member

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    No problem... I have been playing with the blackwater for years.. :)
     
    LemonDiscus, Feb 17, 2010
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  19. WhiteGloveAquatics

    WhiteGloveAquatics New Member

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    LD, what does your water source GH.KH and PH read? and how much peat do you use per your size tank?

    Ive got peat here but the tannins are the problem, he doesnt want a blackwater and I know there are clear BW environments out there but not sure how to replicate without chems or tannins.
     
    WhiteGloveAquatics, Feb 17, 2010
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  20. WhiteGloveAquatics

    WhiteGloveAquatics New Member

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    My rio negro

    Photos of my two aquariums

    well was but it got a whole lot darker and Ph went to a 4.8 and the angels did just fine, infact they laid eggs the most then both on the sword on the right once it got larger and that awful intank filter housing. one morning the entire filter housing was white with eggs.

    I also kept a 28g bowfront that was also a BW, I will have to find those pics, it was super dark.
     
    WhiteGloveAquatics, Feb 17, 2010
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