Wild angels, ich, high temps

I have 5 wild caught angels, P. leopoldi, and though the first three I got were free from ich, I picked up another two a week later and they brought ich to the party. I have not had to treat ich in at least 10 years, but I used salt and heat the last time I did so, and it was no problem to cure this way.

I know that often wild angels and discus require high temps permanently, or otherwise they will suffer chronic parasitic infections (if I understand what I read correctly). I have had the tank at 86 for about 3 weeks, salt for a week and a half, and the temp was upped to 90 for the past 7 days, without much change in the ich situation. Who ever heard of ich surviving in 90-degree water with salt (1.5 tbsp/5 gal)? My thermometer is working correctly. I even had it up at 96 degrees for 24 hours when one of my heaters went kerflooey, but as of today there are still ich cysts on some of the fish, with the temp "back down" to 90.

This is not a major infestation, but extremely mild. They are still in quarantine until I can solve this issue.

Assuming that at some point the ich will resolve, am I going to need to keep my 150-gallon tank at 90 as well or suffer with chronic ich? Will 82 do?

I suppose Lemon is the brain I wish to pick, but rather than send a PM I thought others might offer some input, and/or benefit from reading the discussion.

Thanks!

 

I'm very familiar with the life cycle of ich, and have never run across a strain that would survive in temps over 85 (plus salt) in 25 years of keeping fish. This is new to me.

That's why I think it has something to do with the fact that these fish are wild, and I know for certain that parasites in general are guaranteed with certain wild caught cichlids, specifically discus and wild altum angels. I believe that ich is present more commonly than we think, and it is only through superior husbandry and attention to tank maintenance that keeps it at bay. We let things slip, the fish become stressed, and ich takes the opportunity to overcome its host. In proper tank conditions with good health of the fish, the ich remains dormant.

I've read scientific articles about wild-caught cichlids requiring tank conditions that mimic the water conditions they came from in the wild in order to keep the fish healthy enough to avoid illness, and I'm wondering if this is going to apply to these wild angels. So far, they have proven to have requirements very similar to discus, and maybe I need to quit trying to treat them like they are common angels and treat them like they are prized discus. I did not expect this when I purchased them, but if that is the case, I'll make the necessary adjustments.

Heiko Bleher has told me that the leopoldi species is so rarely imported that I should consider myself lucky to have them, and I feel compelled to go the extra mile with these fish. He has not, so far, offered an opinion about the ich issue, but I remain reluctant to use chemicals to treat this outbreak.

It will make a difference in how I make adjustments to their future home in the 150, so if that tank will ultimately need to be kept at 85F then I need to start acclimating the tank for that now, prior to introducing these fish. They have begun pairing up, and I feel under the gun, to some extent. This 40-gallon is not big enough for a mated pair plus extras, and some fish are going to start suffering here pretty soon. There is a pair that has formed on an informal basis, and they have started trying to keep the other three from coming out into the open, in a classic angelfish manner. I need to get this ich controlled and remove the extra non-paired 3 individuals, and let the pair have their own tank.

For now I'm going to leave the temp at 90F and leave it very heavily planted so there is plenty of cover. These fish still tend to "spook" and crash into the walls of the tank, into each other, and earlier today I had to rescue an angel that spooked and wedged itself between the heater and the glass - if I did not notice what happened he would have been burned (he was unable to move out of the corner he had himself wedged into), so that was a reminder that these are still wild fish who occasionally freak out and are prone to panic, and who have no concept of right angles and glass walls. It is going to be a long process getting them used to the glass box.

Ultimately I am learning a lot from this experience, and it reminds me that I need to step outside the box as an aquarist from time to time, and try new things to broaden my experience. I was definitely in a rut for a good while!

 

Sorry, forgot to provide above info:

pH 6.4
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - ~10
40g breeder
30% PWC every two days to reduce free swimming ich

 

Whoever heard of ich holding onto a host for 3 weeks? Once they fell off they should not have reproduced and more attached to the fish. I am wondering if they are becoming encysted on the fish, and are not falling off?

If it is not ich, I dont' know what it could be, but you are right, Dawn, it is not following the typical course of what we know as ich.

 

It does not seem like that - it is not really on their bodies at all but a few white grains on their fins - it could be anything, honestly - but it has the classic appearance of ich.

I took Dawn's good advice and spoke to the LFS owner (Keith) who imported them. He used "Quick Cure" to deal with the ich they had when he got them in, which obviously did not completely do the job, because it returned. He swore they had no ich on them when I got mine (anyone who knows him knows he can get defensive very quickly and then you can't really discuss anything with him) but I know they did, because I thought to myself that I could quite easily cure it! They had just one dot on a fin, and I did not think that would be any big deal.

He has more in, by the way! I told them they were definitely P. leopoldi, and of course you can guess his response... "I already knew that.." lol But they are still marked "Peruvian Scalare" on the tank. What evs!

I will look into other ailments that could be presenting similar to ich and see what I come up with. Other than the spots, they are behaving very normally, eating well, growing larger, etc.

 

Sorry to leave you hanging! The angels are doing great, though they still have white spots! I treated them for almost a month with high temps (93F) and salt, and then treated them for a week with Quick-Cure out of desperation. Nothing changed.

At some point in their treatment I removed all plants and decor from the tank to make siphoning the substrate and doing PWCs easier, and to give the cysts fewer places to land and multiply. The fish were extremely unhappy in this bare tank, constantly huddled in a corner, spooking every time someone walked into the room. They were extremely stressed living like this.

I finally decided to just move them into the 150 and be done fretting over this "ich" that I don't think is really ich. How could it be? They had very thorough external parasite treatment.

They have been in the 150 now for almost 2 weeks and could not be happier. They do not hide when people approach, and even when I lift the canopy to feed them and put my hand in the tank they do not hide. They are gorgeous and growing. The white spots they have do not change, so I do think it is some kind of permanent scar or encysted parasite, but since they had a very complete external parasite treatment I don't think there is much else to be done. The spots are not spreading and other fish in the 150 do not have any sign of it, and the angels are doing just great, so I am leaving well enough alone. They have been showing pairing-off behaviors for a good while now, even in quarantine, but there seems to be enough room in the 150 for them to live together just fine. I am sure this could change, so I'll just watch them.

They are not eating enough Endler's babies to suit me, though! There is still an overpopulation of tiny fry in that tank, but the numbers are lower. Over time I hope they will work their way through the tank and handle the excess as they grow and their mouths get bigger.

I will post pics of the tank when I get a chance.

 

I will try to get some decent shots tonight - I still have very random luck with photography!

If you were to walk up to the tank you'd think the angels had ich. It looks exactly like that, with no haze or milky appearance. This is only on their fins, btw, which are otherwise clear and healthy in appearance. I have trouble keeping individuals straight, since their stripes, spots and operculum colors change like a chameleon with their moods, but I think I might see a few new ich granules, or whatever it is. I will keep watching them and try to get a pic of an individual fish so you can see what I mean.

 

Yes, I am long overdue...

Here's a crappy pic, but the fish are happy as can be. Now on the lookout for some red phantom tetras - would like a decent school of them, which would go well with the green of the plants, and they come from the same waters as the angels.